Curse

Charcoal Ann · Nov 10, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

now then. this subject has come up OH SO MANY times. this is an attempt to either 1) pull them all into this thread or 2) to stop it dead.

PvE. an increase of lvl cap here would cause an increase in grind. a concept that Guild Wars is not supposed to be about.

PvP. an increase here would have no forseable effect as far as i can see.

NOW. Game wide.
1) a level increase would be hard to balance.

2) a level increase IF BALANCED will be pointless. if it is properly balanced then armor will scale up, hp will scale up, damage will scale up all in tandem. IF BALANCED there will be no changes in the game mechanics. more damage but more defence as well. The only change that an increased level cap would have is to increase the the numbers everywhere. Percentage-wise the effects of a level increase will be non-existent. so why have it? why risk the game balance just for bigger numbers everywhere?

3) the skill system in this game is different from those of other games of its ilk. other games provide you with new versions of skills to scale up your damage. this doesn't. this simply provides more damage with the same skills. unlike in EQ2 i can use a spell i get at lvl 6 when i reach level 20 and still be deadly.

4) A level increase would only serve to increase the difference between the 'elite', 24/7, players and the newbies, the ones who play maybe once or three times per week. why do we need that? why do we need an increased level range to be spread out across? won't it make it impossible to get a full group?

5) This game is about skill. not power. when we get chapter 2 the skills to be had WILL NOT be more powerful that the current ones. they will be different, with different uses, different applications. there will NOT be any spells that can insta kill an enemy.

6) the encounters will scale up with your level. you will have more health and take more damage. why is this different from staying at level 20? there will not be any difference in your survivability in a balanced PvE OR PvP encounter.

7) it will once also lead to a rich 'uber' class. a class of people who have farmed the new, higher level areas, and made tonnes of money. this gives them an unfair advantage over people who either didn't get the expansion or haven't reached that point yet. ANet said that getting the second installment WILL NOT provide you with an advantage. you WILL NOT be able to make more money farming the chapter 2 areas than you can on the chapter one areas.

i think that covers evething i can think of at the moment...

feel free to post any reasons for or against a level increase. i am hoping to see SOME sensible reasons FOR a level increase.

aron searle · Nov 10, 2005, 12:28 PM // 12:28

If i where to post a screenshot of my guild wars display, their is one thing you would not see.

My xp bar, i have it off and i love it.

When i created my second charachter, the most BORING thing was leveling up, as soon as i was level 20 i could really start to play about with new builds. Thats what being stuck at level 20 does, far to ofen in other RPG type games its always a case of.

I cant kill x boss, so i am going to go away and level up then come back and kill him. It FORCES people to think about what they are doing and why, and thats why i love it.

Also point 6 is my favorite, being level 20 or 60 is still just a number and thats all.

Hockster · Nov 10, 2005, 12:37 PM // 12:37

We needed another thread about this why?

burai · Nov 10, 2005, 12:40 PM // 12:40

In the main I agree with you CA.

My only concern is what then will be the ultimate goal for chapter 2? I know the real goal is to reach the end of the game, but I personally found the driving force in chapter 1 is/was to progress my characters through the levels - and ultimately ascend. I think there will need to be ‘something’ tangible that motivates you through the new levels – I’m just not sure what that is

aron searle · Nov 10, 2005, 12:43 PM // 12:43

What kept you playing after reaching level 20 then?

darkMishkin · Nov 10, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

What kept you playing after reaching level 20 then?

I keep deleting my chars and then levelling up a new one! A bit of CA, helping friends, trading, running. But mainly I would create a new character to level.

Having said that I dont want the level cap increased.

Battle Torn · Nov 10, 2005, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I think a level cap increase would be good as long as the following applied...

(1) Your health only went up by a very small amount each level after lvl20 ...2 or 3
(2) And you only got 1 attribute point for each lvl after 20
(3) Your energy didnt go up
(4) The lvl cap didnt increase by much..25-30

This would mean that things still would be relatively balanced and would give PvE people something to look forward to...the only advantage would be a few more health points, no energy points and a few attribute points.

burai · Nov 10, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

What kept you playing after reaching level 20 then?

The same. Levelling up several characters, getting 15k armour, etc.

Don't get me wrong; I still love playing GW, it's just my goals have changed. I have still not completed SF - probably because I'm more interested in saving for a Sup Absorb at the moment. If the level cap had been increased with SF (not that I'm suggesting it should), I would be levelling up now - not farming.

Charcoal Ann · Nov 10, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

it would seem that your idea, Battle Torn, is trying to maintain a healthy balance between bigger numbers on one hand and balance on the other. you are almost saying why not just go up levels? we don't need extra power. we just need numbers. do you really think that an additional 10hp over 5 levels is worth while? if you have that then why not just have levels as a meaningless quantity? why not just keep getting skill points per level?

if you are prepared to accept almost no benefits from leveling then why have it at all?

anyway i don't think that your idea would be good for balance. it would require a rework of the leveling system. the enemies would ALSO need their leveling formula tweaked to allow for a fair fight. more difficult to balance than a normal progression of what we currently have.

this thread was made BECAUSE of all the other ones. i tried to make my point on them but no one listens. this is the only thread that i have seen that is why we SHOULD NOT have the cap increased.

unienaule · Nov 10, 2005, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

7) it will once also lead to a rich 'uber' class. a class of people who have farmed the new, higher level areas, and made tonnes of money. this gives them an unfair advantage over people who either didn't get the expansion or haven't reached that point yet. ANet said that getting the second installment WILL NOT provide you with an advantage. you WILL NOT be able to make more money farming the chapter 2 areas than you can on the chapter one areas.

Actually, if there are items available in expansion areas but not in, um, nonexpansion areas, expansion players could farm them and then sell them to the players who don't have the expansion. Possible? Yes. Likely? We'll see.

Sofonisba · Nov 10, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

I agree that the level cap should not increase.

My main reason is: I enjoy the challenge of having a limited number of attribute points; the challenge of spreading them out just so, for the particular build. It seems that, and forgive me if I'm wrong, people who want a level increase seem to just want a billion points in each attribute so that there is no thought involved to the development of a character.

My other reason is: Do we really need more arenas, with higher level caps also, stretching the community even thinner? Sometimes you face the same team over and over. I enjoy the variety, myself.

Yichi · Nov 10, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

This game is easy enough in PVE that almost ANY mission/quest can be completed with hench and in some cases/builds solo'd. Raising the level to a higher amount would only make thsi easier as to the char having more health and attributes to raise their skills higher.

Argentus · Nov 10, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

For me, gaining levels is such a burden. Each time one of my characters reaches level 20, I breathe a huge sigh of relief. Finally I can stop worrying about gaining levels, spending new attribute points, etc. and just play the game and have fun.

The real reward in this game is gaining new skills, not new levels. Going out and exploring the world of Tyria with a couple of Signets of Capture on my skill bar, hunting down those elusive boss monsters so that I can slay them and extract newfound knowledge from their corpses, is truly a delight, and in my opinion one of the coolest things about Guild Wars.

I believe the level 20 cap should remain, and that Chapter 2 should merely introduce new skills to the game for all professions. The variety of skills available is what makes Guild Wars so much fun to play, and the freedom to try out entirely new builds without having to level up a new character from scratch every time is just wonderful.

Long Live the Level Cap!

Shmash Witdaclub · Nov 10, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

An increase in levels would serve no purpose.

Having said that... an increase in skills, health, energy, armor, pets, etc... would solve nothing!

All it is is more eye candy. The purpose of this game, hands down, is skills and strategy (unless I missed something). If you raised any of the above what would happen? ANSWER: A skilled player will reverse it in a manner to benefit them. Doesn't this happen already?

A warrior with more armor means an elementalist with more dmg, a monk with higher end healing spells, you fill in the blank with whatever else and then goes round full swing circular again.

so, lvl cap increase or not, nothing will change.

Shmash

Loviatar · Nov 10, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Charcoal Ann

from knowing a few personally (who doesnt) by now the number of the level is not only important but is actually the only reason to play.

i recall one person who gave me almost a level by level wow

*only 15 more levels until i get my riding tiger*

they dont play a game for fun it is to get ahead and show off that they are ahead.

THE LEVEL NUMBER PROVES AND VALIDATES MY SUPERIORITY

content for funzies? HELL NO IF I CANT GET SOMETHING REALLY TANGIBLE FROM IT TO RAISE A NUMBER.

IT IS ONLY INFLATION

FROM ALEX

Quote:

which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless.

Vilaptca · Nov 10, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I think the only reason I don't want them to increase the level cap, is because its unique. Every other game I've played has quite a high level cap, that needs insane amount of time invested to get to. Guild Wars doesn't.

I'm interested to see how they add on a new games worth of content and still keep it interesting and worth playing. I'm sure they can do it, but there are so many people out there snickering at our level cap and saying that Chapter 2 will be lame, that I'm very excited to see how they do it. I know they can, but I don't know how.

Wyrmdog · Nov 10, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

For some people, leveling is the point of the game. For them, each level is a goal reached, an accomplishment measured. It is tangible and attainable and it is rewarded immediately. This keeps these folks playing. They are often of the mindset that if and when they reach the level cap, that they have won, or beaten the game.

For them, endlessly farming for faction or items isn't fun. For them, reaching a static and visible goal is. There is nothing inherently wrong with this method of play, but these are likely the players that are obviously aggravating you.

Obviously, as you've pointed out, there are a lot of issues to be addressed when raising a level cap, and unless it was planned for ahead of time, it could be rough. That doesn't mean it can't or even shouldn't be done. Many concerns are just speculation, as are many of the reasons given in favor of raising the level cap.

For the record, I'm in agreement with you that the level cap should be left alone, but I understand completely why people would be excited about a cap increase. After all, not everone plays the game for the same reasons.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 10, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

The sad fact is - once you've reached level 20 - then what? Unless you're a hardcore PvP player (of which I'm not although I have done a lot of PvP in the past) once you've reached level 20, you're reduced to farming and grinding, as there isn't much content in the game itself. There are no tangible rewards for completing quests except to have "done" it.

I can take any character class and finish the game (and not just being run everywhere) in a week. In fact, the only things that slow me down are the typical missions that are a pain in the ass to finish with PUGs (Elona's Reach, etc). This includes getting all of my pertinent skills I'd need, armor, weapons, whatever. The very first character I created I took my time, did every single side quest, explored every area, unlocked and capped every single skill for my primary and most of the secondary skillset as well. But after that - it's either PvP or grind (farming, etc). After spending so much time with my first character, I spent less and less time with subsequent characters (a total of seven over two accounts) until I was simply speeding through missions to ascend them so I could go out and cap whatever elites I was looking for.

So, six months after I purchased the game, I've finished the game with seven different characters, played a bunch of PVP and now am just doing UW runs night after night, or helping guildmates get through their missions, or running around.

And all of this while holding down a regular 40 hour work week job, as well as helping my wife with our restaurant we own (but she does 95% of the work on).

But in the grand scheme of things - there isn't any compelling reason to do anything. Gold in GW is almost useless, it has no real value to actual gameplay. You don't need massive amounts of gold to get more than adequate armor or weapons, everything on top of that is all just cosmetic.

Thus, at least to me, if all ANet did was simply add more missions without providing some sort of real reward for doing them, then the expansion won't be really worth the added cost. New skills? What, the 20 healing spells we currently have aren't enough? Half of the spells have similar counterparts even within the same profession, just different energy cost, casting times, recharge times, etc. Do you really think adding more of the same skills would change the game all that much? Energy/Health degen/regen are capped, there are no single skills that can instant kill anything of appropriate level, all weapons have strict limits to it's damage and constant nerfs by ANet addressing creative skill setups simply degenerate everything to the same level.

And with GW, there is no "end". It's supposed to be an open ended saga - after all, if they ever end it, GW would die. New chapters are supposed to come out at least once a year, so a final tangible ending, of completion, doesn't exist.

At least in Diablo II, there was a purpose to grinding out meph/pindle runs - getting that once in a lifetime uber drop that turned you into a killing machine, invincible, all powerful, and unique. You had to refarm the same areas over and over to complete armor sets so that bonuses would stack. Gold was meaningless - Runes and SOJs were everything. And the stupid game is STILL being played even though the last meaningful update was years ago. Just what does GW offer that would make someone farm an area five years from now?

At some point, you'llbe like Alexander the Great, surveying the world and weeping, because there just isn't anything else to conquer. Because GW accellerates aquisition of everything, that end will be a lot sooner than you all would like.

There HAS to be some long term benefits and goals, or else this game will simply die out. As Charlie Sheen said in Wall Street "How many yachts can you water ski behind"? When you have 15K (or FoW) armor on every single character you have, when your storage is bursting with so much gold and commodities that you can't possibly spend it all - and some people are already at this point barely six months into the game - just what now, Mr Gekko?

Pevil Lihatuh · Nov 10, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

some great reasons. and I agree with Loviator. I play Sacred, a game where you can get to lvl 216. And it's great. And yes, I do admit that I like to be level 80 when someone else is only 60. But as you say, GW doesn't need it.

Let's face it, there's enough of it in gw anyway (What rank are you, omg you're not a mo/w/e so we dont want you, haha you're a n00b), we dont need it increased.

edit: mimi posted same time as me. as a short reply (too tired to think properly

) this isn't a proper mmo. you're not meant to play it for years without a break. It's like a 'normal' game. Play it a few months, then leave it alone until the next expansion comes out. They've always said its for a 'casual' player. Whether you're casual in only playing it on sundays, or playing it religiously for a month then ignoring it for three, that's what this game is designed for. Not for constant character development in like with your own age growth

Xonic · Nov 10, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I don't like high level caps.

let's look at everquest, original EQ has 50 levels, after 300 expensions now the level cap is 70 with possible 1500 or so alternative ability points to get (average 1 hour per point). characters now have about 10 times hp and mana (energy), and damage output than the original game, and it's just all meaningless numbers because mobs also have 10 times hp and damage output than the original game.

yeah, I now have 20k hp instead of 2k, I have 500 dps (damage per second) instead of 50, and now the mobs I fight still kill me in 5 hits regardless...